Once Fired Military Brass...paying the price

Discussion in 'Ammunition and Reloading' started by Ulfberht, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. Tommie Martin Guest

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    Well there are over 20 makers of military NATO brass. Knowing that TAA , IMI or IAI brass is a lot thicker than LC or WCC, it behooves a reloader to never ever "assume" anything. The Nosler book does list the brass used in their reloading as "Nosler"..but in all of my years reloading..I have never ever found Nosler brass in a batch of once fired or new "NATO" brass. It is not easy measuring the "water" capacity for a specific round, so reducing the load the 5% is again a safety thing.
  2. hombre243 Member

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    If IMI or IAI is on the headstamp I will know to research it but so far the only military brass I have used is WCC and LC. And I have had no problems, and have had very good groups with both. I think you and many others overthink this stuff. Low end is low end of the powder charge chart whether it is commercial or military. You work up loads from lower to higher and never exceed max.Then, ya stop pourin powder when you see signs of high pressure but if you work up too fast, you defeat the purpose of working up loads.

    You go right ahead and weigh your water and I will keep shooting. Thanks for the advice.
  3. Tommie Martin Guest

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    Research IMI or IAI brass..please tell me how as it appears your "googlefu" powers are infinately stronger than anyone I happen to know. I know of no NATO case maker that publishes definitive data on the capacity of their respective cases. Production runs are within limits and you nor the maker can tell anyone anything other than " it meets the NATO Specs" and cannot nor will they identiify any variances there in. end. period dot. Please save me and my pitiful attempts at reloading by posting this " research " link you allude to that has all this supposed military case capacity data...

    I don't measure the water capacity of any case..but I do have a very healthy respect for the reloading that I or those around me do, so sound reloading procedures like a 5% load reduction in all military cases is prudent.. The old saying that " an once of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure" is very pertinent in reloading sessions. Saying that safety is "overthinking" pretty much sums up my statement about how you are allowed one mistake in reloading. I wish you ever success there is..but unfortunately it appears you may be a statistic waiting to be " researched" with your aforementioned reloading acumen.
  4. hombre243 Member

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    As I said...you complicate things too much. Whatever I use, I start low and work up.THAT is safety. Please don't try to impress me any further. It is not working. If you want to argue...find someone else. I started loading in 1971. I am still here. Now go bore someone else. Please.
  5. Tommie Martin Guest

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    Your first miss of this day is to think I am trying to impress you..second miss is thinking I care about you and yours and the third is that I care when you started "reloading/hacking at it". I can honestly say it looks like the truth stung there a little bit. Your methods as describe above leave a lot to be desired for just about any level of reloader. I am certainly not in a pissing contest..I could break out all kinds of pieces of paper that might prove me and my methods up..but those same pieces of paper and 50 cents gets me a cup-a-joe at most places, to include using my DD-2A in blue on various posts/bases on any given day and their facilities. My method for safety probably cost the average reloader 1000 grains in extra powder and 30 minutes in time and delivers a crap ton of safety and confidence in their reloading. Your method on the other hand just well..to be honest it sucks and since this is a public forum..I would rather be known as a competent and prudent reloader more so than a hack. Speaking of being bored..if the talk of safety bores you..then you have labeled yourself better than I ever could. It does make me wonder just how many fingers you or those around you have left to sacrifice to your awesome abilities..and yet where is that "research" link on those cases?? Probably in the same place as your again daunted reloading acumen. I would suggest you read these posts till you actually understand what a X ring hit looks like....
  6. hombre243 Member

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    Bye Bye
  7. Tommie Martin Guest

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    I really do love it when the trash does take itself out...many thanks there hombre243..
  8. hombre243 Member

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    Yep. And I dumped you at the curb.
  9. Tommie Martin Guest

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    It is sad when you cannot even understand the previous comment


    I love it when you get all butthurt about this.." the butthurt is strong with this one "..seems using the upgefunkt force garnered all of that case capacity information and reloading data you claim to research all the time..you started it and now can't keep up..like I said previously...you will never know what a real x/10 ring hit feels like as your cranium is definately up the spictorial orfice...and at least I am walking...anyone can find you by the slimey yellow trail you leave everywhere..please continue to dig your own hole...oh darn...that's what you really are in life..thank you for letting everyone know your ancestry. I have tried to keep this kinda nice but then again I just don't care if I get banned...so call me anything you want to in the future as long as you keep showing love and swallow like the mutt you try to hump taught you.
  10. Keith Moderator

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    Ok gentlemen. Take this to the private messages or settle down. Thank you.


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  11. MechTech Moderator/ Damn Yankee

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    Keith, Thanks for moderating the thread. Unfortunately Tommie Martin is no longer a member of MossbergMVP.com. I think Tommie's own case of unresolved "butthurt" has led to him to be a condescending troll. We have no need for him here.
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  12. Keith Moderator

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    Disagree all you want but the personal comments were over the top.


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  13. hombre243 Member

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    I am going to try to ask this one differently...You mentioned measuring near the base. But, what will the measurement tell me? If I shoot off a round and measure a case at several points, all measurements will be chamber measurements or close. I will then resize them or neck size them depending what I am loading. How is measuring going to help me? I do use a Lyman or Wilson case/headspace gauge. That is what you were talkin about right? Measuring after sizing to make sure they will chamber properly. Or were you referring to measuring the case to see if the chamber is in spec?

    I always resize and fully process all once fired as well as new brass then run them through the headspace gauges. If one of the cases is not of the right dimensions it will stick with the base in too far or just a bit outside the checker. I may have to resize the case a couple times, turning it 1/3 or 1/2 a turn each pump of the handle, but eventually it either fits or does not fit properly. Some times I find that the rim itself makes for problems because it has gotten burred or ovaled out. I hand twist them in some scotch finishing cloth and polish the base down intil it fits with a sliding fit into the checker.

    I also check for proper trim length with the tool, but usually they go from resizing to trimming immediately so I pretty much know they are uniform and of the proper length. I even run a few through the rifle to make sure they work, even though the gauge more or less guarantees that. I have to recheck with the first few finished rounds to make sure the OAL is correct, or at least within spec so the bullet isn't jammed into the rifling. When I first loaded .308s I had a fit when I had to pull about 25 bullets because they were too long and crimped tightly. I didn't want to try to seat them deeper for fear of collapsing the shoulder. Now I know to check before crimping and make sure I have a workable round before I crimp.

    I also separate according to headstamp and run them through the wet wash according to headstamp unless there are only a few. But the only mixed cases I shoot are plinkers or close range, low vel/low pressure loads I use for the gong targets. I always remove spent primers first and wash with the primer out. It just seems to work best for me to always do my processing one way and with the same routine.

    The little gauges I use are steel tubes with a SAAMI spec chamber bored into it. There is a very shallow go-nogo groove on each end for checking the headspace on the base end and trim length on the mouth end. They work great. I am sure if I need to measure more precisely there are better tools available. But I am not shooting competition and these little tools work good for me.

    Your comment about the dummy round refers to checking the chamber, not the finished round, right? That is a tool I do not have.
    Your post gave me a lot to go over in my head. Thanks
  14. Keith Moderator

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    I had to reread the thread to remind me of the context and to try to get my frame of reference for the post you quoted.

    I'm still not 100%, so I'll answer from 2 angles.

    1. While most of the cartridge sits in the chamber when the firearm is in battery, there is a small section that does not, aside from the head, so the bolt has something to control and grab on to in some chambers due to variances when the chamber is reamed. The reamer when brand new is at it's best and the chambers are reamed at their tightest tolerances. As the reamer wears, those tolerances loosen up. What and where depends on how the reamer wears. So, there could be a slight bulge at the base of the cartridge before the head.

    2. When resizing brass, the entire case may not go through the die and there could be a bulge at the base as well. Looking at most dies, they are designed to prevent that, if they are setup properly. With a tapered and shouldered cartridge like the .308/7.62 and .223/5.56, the appropriate amount of over cam will minimize or prevent this.

    Now, after saying all of this, my knowledge on the subject is purely from reading and reloading videos. Absolutely no personal, hands on experience, so I may have my information wrong. Your gauge is a good measure on checking how you did with the cartridge.

    On the other side of things, when I talked about the GO and NO GO gauges, they check the chamber of the rifle itself as to where they sit in the minimum and maximum specification range of the chamber. The NO GO gauge tells you that the rifle is no longer safe to shoot.


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  15. hombre243 Member

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    Thanks Keith. I caught the gist...and you just verified that even though I may not have explained that that's what I thought, that's what I thought. One gauge is for in the chamber, the other is for the case after resizing, OR after shooting, which in that procedure shows the condition of the chamber..

    Is having some kind of chamber checking gaug a necessity? All my rifles are nearly new condition and fired very little. IYO should I have some kind of chamber checker to keep an eye on my chambers? If so, please advise and I will look at some online. I think I have read some articles that mention this kind of tool. Mostly they are used on old shot out guns that are customized or rechambered/rebarreled.

    Also comes to mind, small base dies. Some have said they are the cat's tits. Others say not necessary. What say ye?
  16. Keith Moderator

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    GO and NO GO gauges are more useful for checking used firearms that you intend to buy, especially surplus military rifles. They do give an idea where your chamber sits in the scope of things too.

    Even better, I just saw a video on it the other day, measure your fired brass before resizing to give you an even better idea where your chamber sits. It won't be exact since the brass retracts some once the pressure pulse has dissipated but outside of making a cast of your chamber, it's the next best thing.


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  17. hombre243 Member

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    Good idea to know what your chamber condition is. Mine, as mentioned, are nearly new. But, as you mentioned, who knows how worn the reamers were at the time the chamber was cut?
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