5.56 MVP Flash Hider (M-16 Style)

Discussion in 'CrossHair Precision LLC' started by mbacon, Oct 31, 2014.

  1. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Here are a few concept illustrations of a new 5.56 MVP Flash Hider I'm working on. It is similar in design to the one used on the M-16 during the Vietnam era.
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  2. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    MVP Varmint Flash Hider - Iso View 001.jpg
    This might be something we pursue here shortly. It's an M-16 style flash hider for the MVP that uses a crush washer so you can get the top tine clocked out at the 12 o-clock position just right.The overall length (with the crush washer) comes in at 3.00" and the diameter is 1.00" so it fits within the USPSA guidelines. This is just my initial concept design. Any suggestions/comments/improvements? They're all greatly appreciated.
  3. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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  4. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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  5. Chuck S Active Member

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    Brownells catalog probably has pages of M16 muzzle devices all of which fit the MVP.

    Is this a styling exercise or is there some scientific research behind the design? Smith Enterprise Vortex series works wonderfully on the M4 carbine and my MVP.

    -- Chuck
  6. PT109 Active Member

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    Looks good so far! Watch out for the "tuning fork" issue that some of the devices with this type of shape can have. After that it comes down to price and possible suppressor compatibility. Which would be practical for few of us but still a nice option. As far as there being pages full, I have personally tried several, only on semi-auto though, that were just not completely thought through. A lot of Tacti-cool and few that really perform. As I have said before, "Build it and they will come". Keep on truckin'!!!
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  7. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Hello Chuck S,
    According to one of our members who has "been there, done that, "the three prong M-16 flash suppressor of the early Vietnam era embodied all of the best characteristics of a flash hider. It was and remains more effective at flash suppression than the A1 or A2 birdcages that came along later". While there have been MANY who have attempted to offer their own twist to the original, it has only been understood by a limited few that it's the heat treatment and vibrating tines that make prong and Vortex type devices so effective at flash elimination. Not many have taken it to the next level by incorporating all of those desirable features AND then making it fit the USPSA dimensional guidelines. This is what I am attempting to do here. Maybe I pull it off, and maybe I make a really sweet looking paper weight? Time will tell. I have access to some really awesome veterans who will be more than happy to put my design to the test and report back on their results.
  8. Chuck S Active Member

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    Just curious if that was a styling exercise as most of them seem to be. I don't see any way to send a private message. I've been intimately and continuously involved with 5.56mm flash suppression since the XM16E1. Let me know if I can be of service.

    -- Chuck
  9. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Chuck S,
    I would be honored to have any input from you. You're always welcome to reach me directly at m_bacon@bellsouth.net. I'd love to pick your brains on an optimal design. I'd also love to know if there are any "tricks of the trade" that get overlooked by others that I could get right in my design. I'm definitely NOT interested in simply adding another item to my catalog of parts for the sake of quantity over quality. If I'm going to make a new item, I'd like to make it the best I can. It's people like you that allow me to do that. I look forward to hearing from you. Have a great day!
  10. Pastryslayer Member

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    I'll play devil's advocate, and please understand I do so with much respect for your operations, ideas, and products (of which I have one on my rifle and one in the mail).

    1) As noted above, there are about a bazillion muzzel devices for AR15 and compatible muzzles ranging from flash hiders to muzzle breaks. Some try to bridge the gap with varying degrees of success. Most people's (realistic) needs are met by the existing products. Seems like every week we see a new, "latest and greatest" muzzle device, but rarely is there anything new or truly innovative about them. I saw an article online a while back comparing the "best" ones side by side. All many of them proved was that their marketing was ridiculous lies.

    2) Without naming names, the design above looks very, very similar to a product I have used before. Yes there are differences. But you have to look closely to see them. If I made the other product, I'd have to at least consider whether I felt it was too close of a "copy." I'm not a patent lawyer, or any other kind of lawyer. I would just do a lot of homework to avoid the appearance of any kind of protected design infringement. I don't think you'd do that, but an accusation or lawsuit could limit your future ability to make cool stuff and thus take my money.

    3) Also mentioned above, the three prong design does make a really annoying "ping" when bumped or fired. Way louder on my MVP than my AR. Harmonics are weird. If yours does too you'll get lots of emails asking what's wrong with it, when nothing is.

    4) A small thing, but supressor users (such as myself) are often stuck with proprietary muzzle mounts. They should not be considered potential customers, they are stuck with it based on the large investment suppressors represent.

    5) With the above in mind, is it worth your time and energy? Or could you better allocate resources to something else that fewer companies produce or are harder to otherwise get? (I'm looking at you, metal MVP magwell). On the other hand, there are a lot of weapons you can sell this for, not just MVPs, which are still a niche market.

    I'm not going to tell you your business or be offended if you go forward with it. If you have the production capacity and a market and a cool design, vaya con Dios. Just my thoughts on it.

    Pastry out.

    PS: Why do you think it needs timing of the top tine to 12:00? It shouldn't matter when fired...is it anything beyond appearance?
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  11. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    No offense of any kind taken. I actually appreciate you taking the time to write your response. Having said that, maybe I should have waited a little longer in the design phase before posting those pictures. I finished the preliminary design at around 4:30AM this morning, posted the pictures and then went to bed. I was excited to let others see what I was working on. And mainly, the "others" meant the one particular MVP member who had written me a very nice email asking if such a thing could be made for the folks who already have a threaded MVP barrel, or are thinking of having one threaded. This member, who I'll leave unnamed, asked for some pretty specific features on this flash hider but also wanted to make it bigger than the standard M-16 style that has been done to death. This version that I posted was the design in its infancy stage that will allow me to make changes to it in the 3D software very quickly once I get more feedback from our illustrious MVP member. Consider those three images multiple views of my lump of clay. I've also been approached by another very knowledgable member who is gracious enough to offer me assistance in making something worthy of your consideration. I hope to be in contact with both gentlemen shortly. As far as "timing" goes, you're absolutely correct. It really doesn't matter where the tines end up. Call that my OCD kicking in. I like things orderly and symmetrical. It's a curse really. That may change as well as this design progresses. Thanks again for your input. I like hearing all of these diverse ideas and opinions. Take care.

    Sincerely,
    Michael Bacon
  12. saxd45 New Member

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    I have a quick question on the timing. Why not time it to the 6 o'clock position to reduce dust signature while prone? Or would that even help?
  13. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    saxd45,
    That's how I had anticipated the thing timing out, with the single tine at the 6 o-clock position. See, brilliant minds think alike! Thanks for checking in. Take care.
  14. wood chucker Moderator

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    Let me throw my two cents in please.

    The three prong Viet Nam flsh suppressor worked like gang busters at killing flash.

    The tuning fork feature is what made the M14 the early M16 and M60 flash suppressors work as good as the did.

    Ron Smith (of smith enterprises fame) and his wife made an even better mouse trap with the vortex. I will short the long story but say those dang things WORK ! like none other and it "rings" too.:) Cutting slots on an angle off axis is a PITA and probably why the Vortex costs what it does.



    Mike, your drawing looks like a winner !

    To describe what I am thinking lets take a look at a standard birdcage as jumping off point.

    Looking into a bird cage from the back end I see a flat round "face" of about barrel thread diameter but with a hole in the middle a little bigger than the bullet.

    O.k. so if that face of a muzzle device can be larger than thread diameter that would give more surface for gas to push against and give some recoil reduction in theory.

    Now looking on the outside of your device, if the tine slots ( not the overall length ) are a little shorter by starting further forward, that would give you a short cylinder section on the front side of the flat face mentioned above and that my friend just might redirect a good size chunk of noise and muzzle blast forward.

    I think a flash suppressor with blast redirecting capability would get noticed by Patrol owners and other guys with compact barrels.
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  15. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Wood Chucker,
    Thanks so much for writing! That all sounds really good, and I've done most of what you have mentioned here. I did follow your lead and made my back threaded end with the same outside diameter as the barrel, then tapered up to my 1.00" outside diameter.

    Next, I did a LOT of reading on what hole diameter to blow thru the center, and came across some interesting heuristics for that. The general rule of thumb is to go .040" larger than the caliber of the barrel. Another source used a diameter of .281" to accommodate bores up to .244" (6mm). I chose to go with the .281" dimension for the same reason.

    I stepped up the bore diameter from that point to .500" on out thru the end of the piece. This gave me a good amount of meat left over for the tines. My overall length was 3.00" minus the crush washer thickness.

    I still need some help understanding your comment about the tine slots starting further forward. I get what you're trying to say, I guess what I'm asking is how much of that .281" diameter length do you think would be required to really be effective? I'm currently at .230". Would you like to see about twice that length for some sound deadening?

    Would you prefer to have a crush washer or simply go directly against the bottom of the barrel thread and let the tines end up wherever they end up? My feeling was that one tine needed to end at the 6 o-clock position so a prone shooter wouldn't have debris fly up into the barrel. How critical do you see the timing issue being?

    Thanks again for your assistance. I love learning new things. This will be a fun piece to prototype. I've never heard one being used so that I could experience the ping for myself.

    Michael Bacon
  16. wood chucker Moderator

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    I suck at MS paint. Let me scribble some doodles on a scrap of paper and send you a pic.

    FWIW my observations of a AR15 carbine with a 16" barrel with an A1 birdcage and a CAR-15 clone with a 11.5' barrel with permanently attached 5.5" CAR style flash suppressor.

    They sounded like they both had about the same sound loudness as an observer but as a firer the CAR clone was way less blasty.

    Fluid dynamics comes into play with stuff like this. I'm no engineer but I think the .500 main body I.D. is pretty dang good idea IMHO.
    IIRC .500 is the I.D. used in the flash suppressors for N.M. M14 rifles.

    Myself I like the crush washer and peel washer ideas. It gives a person the option to index it exactly how they want it.
  17. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Wood Chucker,
    It sounds like we're both going in the same direction, and that's a great thing in my book because I've created this design based on all of the reading I've done on the subject.

    As cryptic as other designers are, it looks like I've been able to pull most of the useful information out of what's out there. The real question now is how long to make that .281" section before necking up to .500"?

    You had originally mentioned that the body should have no less than half it's length in the form of tines or prongs.
    I have now adjusted the cuts that make up the tine slots to exactly half of the overall length. This has now allowed me to increase the length of the .281" section to .730" Now we're getting somewhere!

    I go for a short distance and then open up directly to .500" for the entire length of the tine section.

    MVP Varmint Flash Hider - Side View 2b.jpg

    MVP Varmint Flash Hider - Iso View 002b.jpg

    MVP Varmint Flash Hider - Iso Scrap 2b.jpg
  18. mbacon CrossHair Precision Industry Partner

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    Chucker,

    You can see in that last image, looking inside the .500" bore, that I now have a small length before dropping quickly to the .281" bore diameter. I like this a lot better than before.

    Now, those expansive gasses have a .730" length of .281" to travel before they're allowed to expand out to .500". And the tines are now exactly half the length of the body O.A.L.

    What do you think?
  19. bombadillo Moderator

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    So I have no real clue on barrel harmonics and the dynamics of it, but what if you put a small piece of metal between the tines that makes it look a bit more similar to the Rainier Arms suppressor? Would that keep the "Ping" of the tines down, and would it change the flash characteristics? Just some thoughts.
  20. PT109 Active Member

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    This thread reads better than the last book I cracked open! Good stuff!
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